Charismatic… or Charismanic? A call to self-reflection

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Let me be honest with you. I am concerned. That’s an understatement, really. I am deeply concerned about what’s happening in the Netherlands. I am the product of the Charismatic movement in Holland of the mid-90s, but I more and more struggle with calling myself a Charismatic Christian for a number of reasons. Let me tell you why.

What’s happening in the Charismatic fringes?

I have been following some of the things that are happening in the Charismatic fringes in our country. Sadly enough it seems that the extremes in those fringes actually are becoming more and more mainstream, so that’s why I felt I needed to write about them. Here are three things that have been worrying me lately in some Charismatic circles:

Mystical experiences with Jesus are being presented as the norm for every Christian. Maybe this happens subconsciously, but when a (new) believer keeps on hearing about all the mystical experiences other believers have, he or she might think that they are less spiritual if they don’t have those experiences. I believe God wants us to be close to him, but the whole “intimacy with God” thing of today’s Charismatic movement might actually keep us from actively fulfilling the plan God has for our lives. We may think that we first need to attain to a certain level of maturity (read: intimacy with God) before he can really use us.
If no Charismatic manifestations (people being slain in the Spirit, holy laughter, miraculous tooth fillings, gold dust, etc.) are happening in a service, the Holy Spirit isn’t really there. A few years ago, I more or less believed that and those kinds of things actually happened during services I preached at, but what made me change my mind is that I have seen very little life change as a result of those kinds of meetings.
The third thing, which is most concerning to me, is the lack of ability to deal with situations when claimed miracles have not truly taken place. Just one recent example: a missions team of one particular Charismatic organization claimed some hard-to-verify healings in a country far away in Asia. So some people decided to check whether the claims were true and found out the healings never took place. Instead of admitting this, the organization tried to cover it up, ignored the proof, insulted the people who did the research and claimed even bigger hard-to-verify miracles. As a Christian who has experienced the power of God first-hand, I still believe that God can and wants to heal. But imagine the damage that has been done to people who are truly seeking God and are open to starting a relationship with him, but now think we’re all a bunch of imposters!

Don’t misunderstand me… I still consider myself a Charismatic. I still believe in supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit. As a matter of fact, what I see happening week after week in the church I pastor, Thousand Hills International Church, just blows my mind. Lives are being changed on a weekly basis, even though it might not look as spectacular from the outside. But it’s definitely the work of the Holy Spirit.

Do the manifestations get in the way of reaching the lost?

But can you understand that I feel less and less inclined to identify myself with the Charismatic movement? My life and ministry is all about reaching the lost with the life-giving message of Jesus Christ and sometimes the three issues that I just identified are the very things that get in the way of reaching the people God loves (and I love) so much!

Get your theology right!

So what do I need to do? What can you do if you feel the same thing? I think we can be Charismatic without being crazy! I think we can be Charismatic without losing our integrity! I think where we need to start is get our theology right, and especially our pneumatology (theology of the Holy Spirit).

To me it seems like the Charismatic movement for a big part has been chasing a rabbit trail of stuff they attribute to the Holy Spirit that is either 1) not from the Holy Spirit; or 2) from the Holy Spirit, but not the type of stuff we need to actively pursue. When it happens, it happens and it is alright, but just don’t seek it. Instead, seek the things of the Spirit that God does want us to seek!

So what aspects of the work of the Holy Spirit does God want us to seek? When I understand the Bible correctly, there are two things he wants us to go for:

The fruit of the Spirit
The baptism (or infilling) of the Holy Spirit

The fruit of the Spirit

The fruit of the Spirit has everything to do with our growth in Christian maturity. When we seek to follow Christ more closely, the Holy Spirit does a work in our hearts and produces the character of Jesus in us. This is a process, not an overnight thing. “The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control” (Gal.5:22-23 NLT).

This is not very spectacular stuff… doesn’t draw much attention like gold dust or people being slain in the Spirit during a service… but wouldn’t the world look much different if all who call themselves Christians would exhibit this kind of behavior? Let me tell you, if you see someone take the step to truly start following Christ, the changes are spectacular! You just need to get close to that person to see it!

Don’t get me wrong… I don’t think we should force this kind of behavior on people. That would be legalism. But when the Holy Spirit is at work in someone’s life, this is the natural (or supernatural?) product! I think there is no greater testimony to a world that is seeking authenticity and a relevant spirituality.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit

But there is more. And this “more” actually makes some of us feel a bit uncomfortable. It’s the baptism of the Holy Spirit or infilling of the Holy Spirit, available to every true follower of Christ! I wonder what the answer would be when you would ask most Dutch Charismatics or Pentecostals what the purpose of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is. I think a fair number of them would say it is either speaking in tongues or all kinds of Charismatic manifestations.

I think we need to stick to what the Bible (actually: Jesus himself!) says about what the purpose of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is:

“But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere – in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth” (Acts 1:8 NLT).

So the purpose of the baptism of the Holy Spirit (and consecutive infillings) is power to be witnesses for Jesus! Nothing more, nothing less! St. Francis of Assisi was right: “Preach the Gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words.”

When the fruit of the Spirit is visible in our lives, our lives become a testimony and we’re able to (practically) reach out to people with God’s love. That speaks louder than words! And beyond that, the Holy Spirit gives us the power to talk about what Christ has done in our lives while at the same time he is at work in the life of the person listening (John 16:8).

The other stuff?

So what about the other stuff? What about the mystical stuff and the manifestations? For one, let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water! God does, at times, work in ways that are outside our comfort zone.

A question we would need to ask when God deals with us in very intimate ways if this is something we need to share with others. When we are intimate with our spouse, how much are we sharing about this with our friends (or even worse: on Facebook)? Let’s be careful to not become spiritual exhibitionists. If we do, we might encourage other people to chase after experiences they may never have or make them feel they’re less spiritual.

At the same time, I wonder how much of the intimate stuff some people claim to have is actually God and how much of it is our own imagination, informed by a possible misreading of the Song of Solomon or other Bible passages.

And let’s also be careful to automatically attribute all manifestations to the Holy Spirit. I don’t believe the Holy Spirit forces himself upon us, but leaves it up to us how we respond to him. I think that some of the manifestations in Charismatic circles are demonic: demons are manifesting because they don’t want to be close to God. But most of the manifestations we see are the human response to what the Holy Spirit does in a person’s life. There is nothing wrong with those as long as the people responding don’t go overboard and start drawing attention to themselves, disrupting the service.

What’s next?

So what’s next? What do I think needs to happen to bring balance to a marginalized Christianity in the Netherlands that becomes more and more influenced by hyper-Charismatic things? Here are a couple of suggestions:

Let’s all be humble enough to acknowledge that we won’t understand everything when God is at work. He created the universe and still chooses to love me, an insignificant human being! If I can’t get my head around that one, I certainly won’t be able to get my head around all the other stuff God does.
Let’s pray for God to give us discernment to see which mystical experiences and manifestations are really from him and how we need to keep those either to ourselves or share them with others.
Let’s be careful to never define spiritual maturity as how much you know or how much you experience. Spiritual maturity is not about our knowledge or mystical experiences, but about how much you love the people whom God loves, in particular people who don’t know Christ yet. So: let’s keep the threshold low for them if they’re seeking Christ.
Let’s be honest! Honesty and integrity are worth more than the biggest miracle. When a miracle you thought happened did not happen, what’s the problem with admitting you were mistaken? Everybody makes mistakes! And I have a lot of grace if you’re honest and I am sure many other Christ-followers do!

Anyway… those were my ramblings. I hope they’ll get a process of self-reflection started in the Netherlands within the Charismatic movement. I believe we have so much to offer to a people that is so hungry for an authentic spiritual experience. Let’s not rob ourselves of our voice by going for the extremes, but let’s stay in the middle and influence a nation for Christ!

What do you think about my observations? I would love to get your feedback, whether you agree with me or not! Be sure to leave a comment!

Joke Haaijer

Hey Sebastiaan, you are fighting the wrong battle
Joke Haaijer

Hey Sebastiaan, you are fighting the woring battle
Anonymous

Hi Joke. I first thought that too… but after some praying and thinking the last couple of days, I really sensed that I needed to write about this. I love the Charismatic and Pentecostal movement too much to not write about this. I am afraid that many people will throw out the baby with the bathwater if we don’t call for balance!
Jen Koen

God is cleansing His church…!! Christians are responding to His cleansing – discerning the error and rejecting wrong teaching, Sunday entertainment clubs and personal efforts to grow mega churches : Praise God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit… ever the same! Humble, loving, righteous, Magnificent true Life,!!
Joke Haaijer

I fully agree with what you are writing. This will also be chapter of the book Martijn & I are planning to write
You have to be careful though that you do not create camps, pro or against something. This causes division in the body of Christ.
Dont be a ‘warning prophet’ People need to discern themselves and become mature christians.

Greetz
Rianpro

Sebastiaan; agree. A book I will recommend on this subject is ‘war on the saints’, from Jessie Penn-Lewis and Evan Robberts. Evan Robberts was the pastor of the church in Wales during the revival in the beginning of 1900. They want to figure out why this revival ended so soon. Part of it was because of the things you mention. This revival started with the Holy Spirit, but ended so soon because the focus shifted from the Giver to the gifts.
I agree with Joke to avoid ‘camps’; ‘for our wrestling is not against flesh and blood..Ef.6:12′.
Henny Snijder

Hallo Sebastiaan,

Is dit ook in het Nederlands te lezen? Mijn Engels is niet zó goed om alles zo te lezen zoals jij he bedoeld.

Groetjes en Gods zegen,

Henny Snijder
Reep Verloren van Themaat

Good morning Sebastiaan,

I agree with much of what you write, we were deeply involved in the Revival wave that encircled the globe in the 90s and manifested strongly here in South Africa, and have tried to keep te good that came with it. We never left the wave of the Movement of the Spirit and especially my wife Martha often experiences the manifestations when in prayer, which I think is a good thing. Being a scientist and researcher by trade I try to look objectively at these things and have seen many obvious instances of ‘scamming’, but on the other hand I have also seen and partaken in many truly miraculous things happening as well as healings that go way beyond human understanding.
I agree that we must be careful not to abuse these things and call attention to or claim the honour for ourselves.

Martha and I love you and the Thousand Hills congregation and hope to visit you again next year when we hope to be in The Netherlands.
Rowanstevens

Dear Sebastian,

I totally agree with your post above. I ve seen a lot of big miracles,but don t talk about them as much, cause people tend to go to idolation and expect more and more big miracles or things that i sometimes doubt, are miracles from God.

We are to tell the story of Jesus, the good news. not spread miracles and to bigger and bigger, sometimes, creepy things.

It s very sad that a lot of people seek the miracles instead of God. They sometimes even go as far, to say that, if you experience them as powerfull as the others around you, you might not be following God, or don t believe in God enough.
and so on..could go on for pages or hours, with examples.

Love Abigail
Rideon

Thank you. Because this is my fear. If you do not read His letters (bible) and do not listen to what His pupils (wise christians) tell about Him, how would you know to whom or what you are opening up your spirit? I have seen some frightening things.
He seeks us as well. So intimacy with God will grow if you take Him, His principles and His work seriously. Make yourself aware that He is always and everywhere.
I stayed in the house of a wonderfull lady. As soon as she got up, she started to thank God for the day, for her house, for her clothings and the breakfast she would be having. She told Him her fears and trouble and discussed her next step. She lived as if God was really sitting beside her and walking next to her. Not because that’s what she felt, but because she knew this is simply how it is. She was my great example of ‘intimacy with God.’ Nothing mystical, just awareness.
Reep Verloren van Themaat

Hi Sebastiaan,

Net in opvolg op mijn commentaar vroeger vandaag – It is all about Christ and bringing His message to the world for the saving of lost souls. To us the Bilble and not books and commetaries about the Bible is central to our lives.

Be blessed.

With all our love Reep and Martha
Bob Rose

Sabastiaan,
Good word and good warning.
Dr. Bob Rose
Global University Europe
http://www.facebook.com/people/Jon-N-Robin-Perrin/1207503754 Jon N’ Robin Perrin

Excellent article. I believe that the supernatural doesn’t have to be spooky or weird in order to glorify God. In the Bible I don’t see Jesus as a weirdo. He was “normal” enough that ungodly people wanted to hang out with him, and He took flack from the religious establishment for it.

When there is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit in our meetings, I always try to explain it in simple terms so that those that don’t have as much experience in such things can understand and receive something from God, rather than just freaking out or walking away. Our purpose is to focus the attention on God, not on any of His servants.
Ursa

Beste mensen,

voor de geïnteresseerden heb ik een vertaling in het Nederlands gemaakt van dit stuk. Ik pretendeer niet dat het een goede vertaling zou zijn en ik heb slechts gepoogd de gedachten van de auteur zo goed mogelijk weer te geven. Je kunt de vertaling hier vinden:

http://forum.credible.nl/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10083&p=1042115#p1042115

En als je er dan toch bent, een bijdrage aan ons forum wordt altijd op prijs gesteld.
Eddy Haesaerts

Vooreerst begrijp ik niet waarom dit alles in het engels moet. Maar goed. Ten tweede vraag ik mij af waarom uit deze benadering voor mij blijkt dat de charismatic movement het centrum van Gods handelen lijkt te zijn in jouw benadering. Ten derde een vraagje, hiermee samenhangend: kent u ‘ ‘de onzichtbare gorilla’ ? Moet u een opzoeken op Youtube. Een test over aandacht. Kort gezegd: als je op iets gefocused bent mis je vaak vele dingen die gebeuren terwijl je aandacht op dat andere gericht is. Wat bedoel ik? Simpel: terwijl in de christen wereld iedereen zo een beetje op zijn ding gefocused is, stel ik mij de vraag: EN WAT ZOU GOD ER VAN DENKEN???? Wat zou Gods agenda zijn. En Zijn ruime visie. Ik denk dat die klaar en duidelijk in Openbaringen 3 vermeld staat over het eindtijdchristendom. De lauwe kerk. Die blind is en HET ZELFS NIET WEET. En dat is mijn perceptie. Niet alleen van het christendom in Vlaanderen,maar als buitenstaander van wat ik in Nederland zie gebeuren. Hoe ik en onze kerk daarmee om gaan kan u lezen in mijn Open brief op onze niet echt saaie website: GOSPELKERK FILADELFIA Vilvoorde, België. Het kan helpen om een ruimer beeld te krijgen-:) Alvast Gods zegen. Eddy Haesaerts Predikant
Mustafa

The good thing about your post being in English is that this story now has a chance of filtering into the English blogosphere and from there reach more people that need to be warned. So far the whole thing has been played out within the Dutch-speaking evangelical world. But really the stakes are too high, and the claims too extravagant, to remain so tactfully silent about the identity of the organisation involved.

This is about TRIN (Touch Reach and Impact the Nations), its leader Mattheus van der Steen, and his tendency to make extreme claims about the fruit of his ministry and the signs and miracles that supposedly follow the organisation in its wake. It is about a trip to Birma in 2010, during which it was claimed among other things that seven blind children could see. It is about the Dutch professor Edward Dompeling who confirmed the supposed miracles but had to back out (at the risk of losing his academic position) when it became clear that these poor children were still as blind as before. It is about the missionary Marten Visser who did the first independent checks of the supposed miracles and reported they seemed to be made up, and about the journalist Karel Smouter who travelled to Birma to check the claims made by TRIN and who found that nothing could be verified. A documentary was aired on Dutch national television, showing the supposedly cured blind kids, still without eyesight. Multiple articles appeared in the Dutch national press, analysing the methods of Mattheus van der Steen, the monetary incentives of the Birmese involved in the campaigns, and the tendency of the organisation to claim most of its converts and miracles in out of the way countries. Meanwhile high profile allies of TRIN such as Sjoerd Pasterkamp, Daniel Renger and Willem Ouweneel continue to support the organisation. Neither they, nor Mattheus van der Steen or TRIN have ever responded truthfully and transparently to the grave concerns that have been raised.

Sebastiaan, I respect your tact in this matter (writing about “a missions team of one particular Charismatic organization”), but I take it that the point about having a platform like this is that your readers can supplement your writings with relevant information such as this. So I hope you don’t mind me filling out the details for the sake of greater transparency.
Anonymous

Thanks for the additional input, Mustafa. What I tried to do is steer away from just singling out one particular organization, but discussing a pattern I have seen within the Charismatic movement in Holland since my conversion in 1995. And you’re right, at this moment TRIN is most visible at this moment, but I believe if TRIN hadn’t been around, similar things would be happening around other preachers or organizations. To me it seems more a tendency within a sub-stream of some Charismatic Christians that leads to excesses. That tendency is what creates the “monster”. I think there might be a good psychological or sociological explanation for this, but I’m not a psychologist or sociologist, but a theologian and an economist.

And Eddy: I am writing in English because I pamstor an international church and about half of my readers are in the English speaking world. If you check back a few comments, someone refers to a Dutch translation of my post. I am hoping to offer posts in Dutch in the future as well.
TB

good article and appreciate ur heart…two critiques:
1)we don’t seek fruit, it bears from the branch from which it is planted/rooted in…it is effortless, as it comes forth naturally because if who it is (not what it will become…this manner is hard)
2)nothing wrong with intimacy with God, it is necessary…but I am not “intimate” with my wife in public, I am “intimate” with her in private, and we bear much fruit. My private intimate time with the Lord produces much fruit in my life.

My wife and I were involved in many mystical type meetings back in the late 1990′s. Saw amazing things happen. She did in fact receive a “gold” tooth. It was wild evening. We thank God for those evenings as I think they were beneficial at that time in our life. We were seeking Him and I think by his grace we saw some incredible things. We were always about seeking after Him, chasing Him, and then we wore out, got tired. We were always looking for God to “show up” at meetings and rated the meetings to the experience we had. I must tell you that during this period in my life there was No Peace. I was self-righteous and my “experiences” with God were proof of my relationship with God. Nothing could be further from the truth. All of this eventually pointed us to something more. An abiding presence with God, knowing He was always with us, never leaving me, never forsaking me. Never having to call Him down to be with me, just an acknowledgment in my heart that He is as He said He would be with us, One.
http://pastorsebastiaan.com Sebastiaan van Wessem

Great insights, TB. Couldn’t agree more! I’ve been on a similar journey.
http://pastorsebastiaan.com Sebastiaan van Wessem

Hallo Ursa. Hartelijk dank voor de vertaling. Ik heb hem even nagelopen om ervoor te zorgen dat hij inderdaad zegt wat ik bedoel en heb hem onder de Engelse tekst geplakt. Zie dus hierboven. Geef je het door op het forum van credible?
Rick Jansen (Arnhem)

Good post, Sebastiaan. I have the same worries. Some notes from me.

Intimacy is for sure a personal thing. The relationship I have with God is different from what others have. This is something we have to teach in our charismatic churches. For the one it is a deep experience in his feeling. For the other it is a deep conviction in her mind. For a long time I Thought that there was only one way of experiencing God. That was THE way. People who had a different experience weren’t good christians or no christians at all. Everything was black – white. Now I meet christians and accept them as they are. Perhaps God also gives special experiences to some people who need this for some time. Miracles are a great way to see God’s greatness. But it is only one way to express his greatness. The older I get, the lesser I need these experiences in my faith life. Christians should learn to have faith without miracles. Faith must be in balance. Not only feeling. Not only the mind. Not only bodily experiences. But faith in all aspects of life.

Unchanged lives in spite of experiencing great miracles in life is what wonders me as well. The Netherlands has a lot of christian (charismatic) movements. In spite of that our government isn’t inspired by the gospel. The miracle faith doesn’t relate to society at all. Is there perhaps wrong theology in relationship to standing in this world and being the light and soul in the society? We must go away from a dualistic point of view towards the world and take a stand as christians. And move towards a holistic (not new age!) view of our task in this world. To take our stand in this world as renewed christians.
Richard

Dag Sebastiaan,
Jij legt de vinger bij iets waar de pinksterbeweging aan ten onder kan gaan als zij niet duidelijker met gezag over leer en leven wil spreken. Waardering, Richard
Emmanuel olumobi

Thanks Sebastiaan for the post. I thought the craze is only within the “migrant church” circle never knew its already gone viral to the Dutch churches. I wish there will be a Christian version of wikileak that will devout it self to continually investigate and expose the fraud that goes in the name of charismatic manifestations, healings and deliverance. Of course I am a very strong believer in these things and also have by the grace of God been a beneficiary and a source of blessing to others.
Rideon

Most of the time the excesses start when people focus only on the happenings. When people came to Jesus with their pains and their troubles, He had pitty on them. He healed and freed them and sometimes gave signs to prove His authority over the spiritual world. Through His holy ghost, God still does.
But the people that followed Jesus because of His miracles, formed the crowd that was sent home after being relieved. The people who came for His wisdom, His truth, who were changed after the encounter, that were the ones He held close to His heart.
If God makes something happen, it is because He wants us to grow stronger in faith and righteousness. Not because He wants to satisfy some thrill seeking minds.
But because people dó want that, they keep surching until they find something that will please their hunger for more of the extraordinary. What they may find may not always be God’s doing. In the least mass hysteria through manipulation.
Christoph Fischer

Ramblings? I couldn’t agree with you more!
Monique

Wat zou ons meer tot nadenken moeten stemmen, het feit dat in bepaalde gemeenten teveel bovennatuurlijke dingen gebeuren of het feit dat deze in andere gemeenten ogenschijnlijk totaal ontbreken? ‘Onderzoekt alle dingen en behoud het goede..’

‘Charismania’ wordt al door velen beschouwd als potentiele bakermat voor de laatste openbaring van de antichrist en ik begrijp dat heel goed, want veel mensen lezen de Bijbel niet en laten zich graag van alles op de mouw spelden en geloven pas als ze wat zien. Dankzij de gave van onderscheid (dat is dan weer de andere kant van dit verhaal dus) kunnen wij deze valse profeten gelukkig ontmaskeren.

Laten we het kind niet met het badwater wegdoen; de charismata op zich zijn goed, blijven actueel en hun verschijning is Bijbels (1 Corinthe 12) en elke gemeente mag deze nastreven tot opbouw van Gods glory.
Alleen is het God zelf die deze geeft en bepaalt, wij moeten onze plaats hierin blijven kennen en vooral waken voor de valstrik van de vijand, die verdere verdeling in het Lichaam alleen maar toejuicht.

Monique Veenstra
Ruth

Great post. I’ve come to lots of the same conclusions (though not so well formulated) in my 28 years as a Christian. In the last couple of years, I started going to a Calvary Chapel church here in northeastern Maine, US, and at first it seemed a little too ‘quiet’ for a Pentecostal/Charismatic. But I’ve since learned to appreciate the sincerity and true dedication of the people who planted this church in this very difficult area. Their individual testimonies & evidences of transformed lives, as you describe, are the best indication that they are truly filled with the Holy Spirit.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Onno-Stark/100000675634562 Onno Stark

The lack of integrity is not my first concern, it is the source of these new movements. (Lakeland and the like, i.e. prophetic movement in the US) I investigated charismania a lot since I heard about the Lakeland hype in 2008. Many times it is mixed with new age stuff or stuff from other religions and an extreme version of prosperity preaching and a strong focus on supernatural experiences and they call that Christianity. The preaching mostly is story telling and not so much preaching the Word anymore and failing to preach repentence. The fruit says a lot (lack of integrity is one of those) and that’s the most important by which we have to discern. I agree that God can move in mysterious ways and can do weird stuff. (putting clay in someones eyes to heal him of blindness for example). Therefore I will not judge too quickly on what I see in manifestans. But the growing belief that you just have to live and enjoy and not think too much and not test the spirits and the continuing evolution of theology is another great concern of mine. I still consider myself charismatic too and I love it when God does miracles or lets you experience His presence but when we have our focus on experiences we will be open to all kinds of deception and traps from the enemy who comes as an angel of light. I don’t want to call myself Evangelical anymore as the Evangelical movement in Holland as I know it lets this charismania spread in the name of unity and “don’t judge” arguments. We have to get back to the basics and as the Bible says dont be friends with people who preach another gospel but rebuke them. You can’t be in unity with everyone as the Bible says you may take part in the evil that they do. Thank God that more and more people start to see the danger of charismania.
Bart

ik lees hier de opmerking laten we het kind niet met het badwater weggooien. iets wat ik vaak uit monde van charismanische gelovigen hoor, zoiets als er moet toch wel iets goeds in zitten? Maar ik denk dat je een kind gewoon niet in (zwaar) verontreinigt water moet laten baden. anders kun je het lijk met het badwater weg gooien.
TAHARRIS

Great thoughts. Some of this is the difference between the Charismatic movement and Classical Pentecostalism. The leaders of the Pentecostal movement early on worked to formulate a biblical theology of the Holy Spirit and his work among us. Yes, there were lots of excesses and stuff happened. But, the leadership would not allow any of it to become normative within the church. Instead, they focused on what was biblical.

And, as I preached this past week, the focal point of the baptism in the Holy Spirit and all the experiences was always Jesus – not the experience itself. That is why their theme verse was, “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever” – not Acts 1:8.
Clifjernigan

Pastor, I am a retired minister of the Pentecostal persuasion with more than 55 years of ministry. I totally agree with your assessment of this subject. At first I could not believe my eyes as I read your post. I have gotten some very negative responses from well meaning believers for advocating the real evidense of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, ie, fruit (singular) of the Spirit, one, and two, power to witness. To me, that simplifies our reason. I have found an enormous amount of interest in a mystical experience, as opposed to a dying to self practice. I have also found that the prosperity gospel is deeply intrenched in the charismatic movement. My knowledge of scripture prohibits this, due to the writing of Apostle Paul particularly, but others of his kind. I am tired of “conjured up”, so called miracles. “He, God, knows what you need before you ask”. One other factor from my “warped” view. If God could trust me with wealth, for His Glory and purpose, then He would dispense said funds. Not every believer is trustworthy….in finances. So, I must proceed with the Gifts I know he has provided me, (1) His son, Jesus . (2) His Spirit (out of whom comes the manifestations you mentioned). God bless your straight forward, down to earth ministry.!
Annonymous

Right on!
http://pastorsebastiaan.com Sebastiaan van Wessem

The sequel to this article came out on February 8 and is called “Gifts versus Harvest – How to be truly Pentecostal.” For those of you who were wondering if I am still a Charismatic Christian… Here’s the link: http://www.pastorsebastiaan.com/2012/02/gifts-versus-harvest-how-to-be-truly-pentecostal/
Jan2umeijer

Dear pastor Sebastian,
Your blog is already a bit older but still necessary and true. The threat is still there, allthough it seems to have moved from churches to conferences and other non-church meetings.
What I sense is that because of the mistakes like the ones you mention, many churches now want to hide the charismatic. They want to be seeker friendly and invest hughly in soundsystem and other side issues. The main thing seemes to have a cousy atmosphere. I see that as a threat too.
Be blessed, Jan-Willem

Sebastiaan Van Wessem

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